Anne Edma Louis

The full conversation with Anne Edma Louis, transcribed. Lightly formatted for reading.

What does entrepreneurship mean to you? For me, it means freedom. It's still a lot of work. I mean, I'm not gonna lie, it's most likely going to be more work than if you choose to work as an employee.

So, and welcome to the Montreal Entrepreneur Podcast. I'm very pleased to have you here today. Please introduce yourself and tell us what you do. Thank you for the invitation.

So my name is Anne and I work as a business lawyer. I started my law firm in 2015, so now it's been soon to 8 years that I've been helping entrepreneurs starting and grow their businesses. So my team, we help them, like they come to us with an idea. So as early as I have an idea to open up this restaurant, can you assist me with that?

What are my, what are the legal steps I'm supposed to be doing? And then I take them along this route to them growing their business and telling me I have new partners or them saying I want to buy another company or selling it. So we really take them on this journey. And did you always know that you wanted to become a lawyer or was that an accident?

Kind of. No, I didn't always know. Some people knew since they were a child. What I know is that as a child, I used to play like the teacher.

So, I used to pretend I was a teacher and I'm an only child. So, I would play with my dolls and pretend I'm teaching them some things. And this, I can see it in my day-to-day today because I really like, like doing webinars where I go and teach people some legal concepts. So, I think that's where it comes from.

But choosing law as a field comes from having immigrant parents because because they have goals for their children the minute they're born. So they kind of had this roadmap for me and they're like, look, now it's time to choose. So you could go into health and be a doctor or a nurse. You could be a lawyer.

You could be an engineer. And these are the options. And you're looking at the cards, you're like, okay, I'm choosing this one. So I chose this one because my dad was saying, you know, whatever, you'll always be able to do something out of your law degree.

Like law degree is useful for anything. So I I was like, okay, sure. But as I went into it, I started to look at the different fields I could practice in, and I really created this interest in business law. And then I did my Tax Master as well afterwards to add this component also to my practice.

And here I am today. And would you say that because now you're a business owner, obviously, uh, did your parents, did they have business themselves or not at all? So they were pretty petrified when I told them that, okay, now it's good I did I'm not in law school and I'm not a lawyer, but I want to practice on my own. Because when they told me to pick one of these options, it's because they were really aiming for me to have stability.

Because they, like, they immigrated and all they were seeking is something stable, you know, security. So they assumed that because I had picked this path, I would go and just get a job. So then I tell them, no, I'm actually going to start and branch out on my own and see where this could lead me. And it was at the same moment that my dad was retiring, literally the same month I said that, he was like, like no longer working.

So it was like you were at this moments in our lives that were so different. And my dad was retiring from working at the government for his entire career. So he was like, why don't you just get a job and, and you'll think about it later. Maybe like get some experience and then you could do that.

Which was a valid point, but the reasons behind it was more of his fear for me to not have stability. And at the time I was living at my parents', I was like, I have nothing to lose. I could just start now because it's going to take time. Starting a business and getting the reputation and getting known and getting clients takes so much time that if I don't do it now and I get a job, I don't know if I'll have the courage later to do it.

Like some people now when they quit their job and I'm like, this is like real courage because you knew stability for real and now you're leaving it. Whereas I was just an intern with no money already, just trying to make new money. So for me, it made sense to give it a try. And I said, if I don't make it work for me within 3 years, then I'll just get a job.

You gave yourself 3 years? Yeah. That's pretty good. So you had a plan B just in case?

Well, the plan B was just apply for a job. So you've started your business now, you're on your own. You said, okay, usually the path may be people go get some experience in a law firm and then they can venture out to start their business. But what were the challenges that you had to face right off the bat?

Well, when starting out, I didn't know anyone in a sense that I went to university in Ottawa, but I'm from Montreal, so came back home. But then I'm also an introvert, so I didn't know anyone beyond my circle of friends. And here I am saying that I'm now practicing on my own from my parents' house. It's like, great, but no one knows who you are.

No one even knows you're practicing law. So it was like, how do you go out there and make new friends or a new network? That was my biggest challenge. Because my husband, which was not my husband at the time, but then we got married a few years ago, he told me, look, you can't stay home and expect clients to come to you because no one knows you.

So then he said, you have to go out there and shake hands with people. And I literally looked at him like, what do you mean shake hands? Now it seems it's come, I understand it now, but back then for me, it was like, I was clueless. I was like, what do you mean?

It's like, you have to go and find the people who could refer you clients. com and try to see. And I was like, that was a great idea I had. Let me now look for a job.

And then it's like, no, because now you told me that you had this dream. You can't just go and get a job because now I know that that's not what you really want. Like, you actually want to start your law firm. That's interesting.

So it was like, you can't just get a job. So he kind of first, well, he put it in my face that I said I wanted to do that. So he said, you have to go and give it a try. So for that, you have to now go outside, like, go on LinkedIn, look at accountants, financial advisors, like, who are the people who interact with entrepreneurs, you know, who are these people?

And call them, you know, call them, ask them for a coffee. And then like a few days later, it was my birthday. And that morning I said, I'll gift myself courage, like give it a try, you know, do that for you and see where it leads you. So I called random people, literally cold calling them.

And I was like, hi, I'm starting my law firm and I'm looking to see if we could collaborate. Maybe I have clients I could refer to you and vice versa. Can we go for a coffee? And just did that.

Then also messaging people, not just having to call them, especially since people are busy. Usually you should just email them and it's fine. And surprisingly, people would like— not everyone, but I guess 1 out of 2 or 1 out of 3 would answer positively. And I would start meeting people and take it from there.

Wow. And now 8 years fast forward. Yes. Here you are today.

Here you are. So you have to give like, I'm glad I went for it, you know? Yeah. Because on social media right now you're very present.

In fact, that's how I saw your post and I was like, oh, okay, she's interested. Let me look at more of her content on LinkedIn. Yes. And so you've been doing this now for like 8 years, like on LinkedIn as well?

No, well, not on LinkedIn in a sense that LinkedIn evolved a lot, right? At the time, talking like an old person, but back then videos on LinkedIn were not a thing, was not even a feature. So a lot of the things we see now have changed. YouTube was already there, but using Instagram and LinkedIn as like outlets to promote ourselves, not as much as now.

And have— what, what are, what are some of the upside that you've seen with social media for your industry? For me, changed a lot positively because When I started, I would use LinkedIn mostly to connect with people. Yeah. At the time, people were still reading, so I would like write blog posts, like a little article here and there on LinkedIn to share it.

ca, but in French. I created the blog so I could put my articles over there so people could find it with SEO. And then I started writing as a contributor for the Huffington Post. But you see, that was possible at the time.

At the time, you could ask to be a contributor, and if they liked your work, you could, and then you could publish every week. But then they stopped that. So things have changed. But for me, that was good because it was creating the habits of creating content, written content, but still going every week on a pretty major newspaper outlet.

So that was good. But then Around 2019, that's when I believe LinkedIn started to add the feature to do videos. And again, my husband said, look, there's now videos on LinkedIn. Have you noticed?

It's like, mm-hmm. And he's like, because you need to do them too. So I was like, I don't think so. I don't think I'm going to start doing videos on LinkedIn.

And he was like, no one really using the feature yet. So you have to go on it because it's a good opportunity to have visibility because when it's a new feature, when people use it, they also push it to— Yes, exactly. So it was like, you need to do it. And especially as a lawyer, like no other lawyers were doing it.

So it's like, that's it. So again, started using it for that, but that really helped because then people can see a face and they listen to you and then they also see it all the time and they kind of create this connection with you before they even reach out to you. And also added them on YouTube so then people can go and binge watch the videos. And then people would recognize me if I go to an event.

They're like, aren't you the girl who does the videos on LinkedIn, the lawyer? And it's like, yes. So anyways, doing that was really a game changer for me. It's like you're creating your own brand.

Yes. As a lawyer on LinkedIn. Exactly. And Black lawyer on LinkedIn, right?

Not a lot. Even more of a— Yes. Like standing out. Yes, exactly.

And what is that like to be a business lawyer? What does a typical day look like for you? For you? I— it potentially changes from like other lawyers.

Maybe they have a different type of clientele, but for me, because my clients are really individuals starting their businesses, it's a lot of, um, business owners or new business owners. Startups. Exactly. So they come to me and they have this idea, or they're already running their business and they need assistance.

So my days It's hard to say because when you have a hat of a business owner and a lawyer, it's like your day split in three. Because sometimes in the morning, I'll allocate time to just work on the client's work that we have to do at the moment. But then an ideal day would be that in the afternoon, I can do my follow-ups or think of the content I want to create or plan my next online event. And then evening, I might use that time to think because I don't have interruptions from the day for my team.

I can just think in silence and then finish what I wanted to during the day. So it's hard to say, but it's a mix of clients meetings and all of these. I understand. And what are some of the common challenges that you see like those startups that they're facing that they come to you with?

Mm-hmm. So the most basic, I would say, common one for someone who has this idea is just knowing Which legal form makes sense to start? Okay. For me, this question comes often and the answer is super easy, but then I take it for granted.

But it's true that someone who just wants to start this restaurant or this e-commerce, it's true that the first thing you have to do is to register your business. And you would want to wonder, should you incorporate the business or should you start as a sole proprietorship? Mm-hmm. So These questions are absolutely valid and I'm now making it sound like it's basic, but it's the first step.

You have to register the business somewhere. So that's a common problem in a sense that they're not too sure which one to pick. And some people will pick incorporation because it seems more legit and it seems like the right decision, but it's too early and then it brings like too much cost into managing it. So you still have to think about it closely.

So what is your process in helping them identify which one to choose. Yes, we have to take into consideration also, are they starting out and that's going to be their full-time activity, or are they starting out as a side hustle? Because several of them have a full-time job and they want to start building that business, meaning new income adds up to existing income. So we have to look at, okay, how much are you generating as an employee?

How much do you think the side hustle is going to make? 'cause we have to think about the consequences already for that. Like, do you need that new income or is it better to put it aside in a company? Yeah.

So that's one question to think about. If someone is just starting from scratch and will have no other sources of income, I would recommend to just start as a sole prop. Okay. But then the question is, is your activity more risky in terms of liability?

'Cause then if someone is opening a restaurant, even though they'll be running it full-time and they will maybe not have a lot of money to start off, you want to protect protect yourself in case something happens. So then you should still incorporate. So that's things we look at. You don't want to get sued.

Exactly. And, um, when— okay, so now let's say, let's take an example of somebody that they started a business and they're growing with you. When is the right time to say let's trademark the brand? Is it at the beginning or is it when they have momentum?

Both, both times are good. Okay. I would say I've met both. I met people who did it so early that they had not even tested their idea on the market.

And then by the time the trademark is registered officially, the business is no longer running. It's like you email them and it bounces back. It's like, ah, they didn't do it or they're no longer doing it. And I also have clients who wait too long.

They have this huge momentum. I had a consultation on Friday. Huge company now. They're doing great.

They have clients in the US and in Canada. And now they're thinking, oh, what is this trademark thing? And then he tells me he wants to trademark. And as I look it up for him, it's like not going to be possible here.

Really? Yes. Because it's— it was— it could have been yours, but somebody else took it. Yes.

And they're not exactly doing the same thing, but 'Cause the thing with trademarks is that you have it in your niche of services or your industry. Mm-hmm. So it wasn't even the same thing. I could meet both of them and it would be two different business ideas.

But because in terms of the industries, they classify as the same, then it's kind of taken in that category. Although, yes, I agree. It was like, but we're not doing the same thing. I'm like, I know, but in the whole categories situation, it's the same one.

So unfortunately, things like that happens. I would say if you you don't do it right away because you want to test the market. As soon as you see that momentum, clients are coming, use the money and just file a trademark. And is that something that's expensive?

Is it complex? Not as expensive as people would think. A common price is around $1,200. Okay.

Uh, to do the process, and then government fees are around— I mean, by the time people watch, maybe that will change— but around $400 of extra government fees. And it's valid for 10 years, and then you can renew Okay. Because a lot of people might think, you know, it's a big, it's a big process. Oh, some people don't even know.

Some people thought it was like $5,000, $10,000. So they're like, it must be this huge expense. And it's like, no, no, it's quite, it's, it's always depends where you are in your business, but it's quite reasonable when you think about it for what it brings for you. And it becomes an asset for your business.

And if someone wants to eventually have partners or get investments or sell the business, if people know you for that brand, $1,200 is really nothing. Like, you want to pay for it for sure. And how important is it to have a lawyer, especially in business, a business lawyer like yourself, when they're in business? I, it's, I would say it's a must in a sense that you want to have that person that you can double-check what's going on with.

Uh, I don't speak to my clients every day. It goes like in and out in a sense that you might really need me at the time of starting out to set the basics and then only 2, 3 years later you'll need something else or something new will happen because then you have to go and operate the company and make it grow. So it's normal to have like ins and outs, but you would want to reach out at just at the beginning. And even if you don't hire them for a full mandate, just like booking a consultation just to know, you know, what should I know and what should I do is always a good way to start and not necessarily take advice from a cousin or people that don't even know.

Yes, which often happens, like, but my cousin or my friend said said this, or I heard— I've heard this, and it's like, it's better to ask for your particular situation to someone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I know a lot of people are afraid to speak with lawyers. Oh no, we're not gonna go see the lawyer.

Also, some people I would meet and they would say, I hope I never have to speak with you. And I'm like, look, I don't do litigation. I don't go to court. I don't deal with problems because they assume we'll go see them if you have a problem.

And that's what I wanted to do when started the firm, meaning showing them that it's not just for problem fixing. Like, just for starting, you should know those basics, and lawyers can help you with that. And also make them realize that we're humans and we're not scary and we understand. But also, it's not like when you— what you said, that it's not when there's a problem that we're looking, okay, who should I call?

But at the beginning, they can start having that relationship with you, and then they can just pick up the phone and ask you one quick question. And yeah, exactly. Definitely. I like that.

And seeing you, you're not scary at all. So, oh my goodness. All right. So now let's move on to the startup hiring their first employee.

What are some of the things that they have to keep in mind when they're drafting that employment contract? Yes. What I will see the most is that now online you can find so many templates, which is fine because because internet made everything accessible. So then I'll have clients assume that they found this template and it's good.

But one thing to keep in mind when you're hiring employees, the most important things to look out for are the non-compete and confidentiality and intellectual property. Let's say you're hiring them to— and they're helping you build the business, building processes, maybe building guides and documents and all these things. These, these are actually like intellectual property assets of your business. Like it helps you run it and it's part of it.

So you want to make sure that in your contract it's written that everything they do as an employee belongs to the company. You know, it's for the benefit of it. And also having the non-compete, what happens is that people will think, well, I was just saying that they can't work for another business like mine or for a competitor for like 5 years. But you need to be very specific in terms of what exactly the— what's the industry or what's your business doing that's really unique to yours?

What's the territory, like territory, okay, on which they can do that? And that's becoming tricky because now there's like startups that are creating apps and the apps is available throughout the country or all over the world. But it's too easy to say, well, all over the world you can just run or work for a similar business. That's too vague.

So we have to think about these different parameters and also the length. Like, 5 years could be considered a long time. Sometimes it's better to just go for 1 year, 2 years. It also depends what you're doing.

If you work at a spa and you hire this person to do some hair treatments, you can't write it the same way that you would write it for your, like, developer for an app, because it's not the same things. The hairdresser can go and work for someone else in the nearby neighborhood, it's fine. Like, if it's not— I forgot how many kilometers, but at some point the client's not going to go to the other salon. Like, they go to this one.

So you have to think about that. So what if the person is a general manager, let's say, and they want to open another spa? So in the clause you would put, so they cannot open another spa? Like, yeah, because then you would have the diff— the differences between opening another company that could be a competitor versus going and work as an employee, which is also different, because you don't want to prevent someone from being able to go and work as an employee in their field of expertise, not too far away from their house either.

Like, if they live in Laval, are you going to cover the entire space of Laval, you know, versus opening a business that's different? I want to cover larger because as a competitor establishing a business and you've worked with me. So it's all these things to think about. Very interesting.

And how do you enforce that? Let's say we know that they're stealing like intellectual property. How do we— what are some of the legal options the business owner has? The first thing, I mean, first you could already just a simple call or email just to let them know that you've noticed some things going on.

And if that doesn't work, because sometimes just that, I've seen people, they send a DM and say, look, I've noticed that you're like stealing from my content or you're like inspiring yourself a bit too much. And that was enough for people to kind of be surprised that they were caught. If that doesn't work, you would want to go ahead with the cease and desist letter and have it mailed. And I would say there's like just mailing it.

But also you could have it sent by your— I always forget what's the name in English for that, but huissier, like someone who's actually— their job is to go and knock knock at your door and say, this is a letter for you. Yes. That adds a layer. So you can go from level to level to how you want to address that.

And if that still doesn't work, unfortunately, you could go ahead and actually file an actual legal course at the— like, at the— à la cour. À la cour. The court. Yeah.

Okay. And so now let's say if it's an employee, what are some of the things that we should avoid when firing an employee? Like, things not to do. Mm-hmm.

I think it's best to inform yourself on what are their rights, because you also have to take into consideration. So for how long have they been working with me? Cause if I fired them, but it's been 2 years versus 6 months, it's different. But that what they would be allowed to receive in terms of compensation for, um, for the notice.

So just informing yourself in terms of, okay, what are the notices, delays, and what should I pay them? And also if I owe them vacation time or anything to just kind of take into consideration that they're, they have rights as well. So looking at that so that when you tell them, that you also tell them what they will receive, that it's just— you're not just taking them away and removing some rights that they were allowed to receive. So that would be one thing.

And also to define what's the good timeline for to do it. Let's say you are— it depends on the role, but if they have a role where they have access to sensitive information, to define whether you're gonna tell them And it's like in some corporations you tell them, but they can't go back to their seat. So are you going to tell them on Zoom and they have your, like, your office computer and they're at home, or are they at the office with you and you're telling them it's their last day, or can they still finish the 2 weeks because it's not super sensitive? But things like that to, to take into consideration.

In the movies, they usually show you that they escort the person. Yes, with security. Exactly. Pretty dramatic, but it does happen for real.

But when hiring, looking— when somebody's looking for a business lawyer like yourself, what advice do you have for them? Like, what should they look for before they make that decision to say, okay, this is the person that I want to work with? I think it's like, um, for me it's like my accountant in a sense that you want to feel comfortable with them. Because if you want to go and ask them a question that just came up, like, you want to feel that you can do that, that they are available for you and to answer your questions.

So I would say, see it if it's a natural fit because you could have a long-term relationship with them. Like my accountant, I have no choice but to talk to him on a regular because we have to file taxes and annually we have something to do. Not exactly the case if they work with me, but still see it as, is it someone that I would want to work for on the long term? Don't just shop around for pricing because you could always find cheaper.

So see, are you looking to have someone that you could just call and get the advice or just a service and then that's it. And I would see that's the first thing to start with and see if they offer a first free consultation and see if they're willing to answer your questions and also understand exactly how they work in terms of pricing in a sense that, okay, that's the one service. But some people will ask me in a year from now, if I have questions, how do you work? Like, is there bank of hours or something?

Like, how is it when I will want to reach out again or if I want to reach out a few like a few other times, some firms will bill you by the minute. Yes. Others will have a scope of a contract first. So you have to see how it works.

Okay. And when business owners, when they have excess cash and then they decide, okay, you know what, maybe we should invest in real estate, would your advice be to create a new corporation? Do they buy it under their personal name? What's your advice?

That's a good point because you said business owner having excess cash, meaning hopefully he's incorporated or she's incorporated. And if the excess cash is in the company, then it brings them to another level where they can consider having what's called a holding company. Okay. A holding company makes it more sophisticated because it's like the holding owns the operating company, like the restaurant.

So then you can start taking that excess cash and putting it aside in the holding. So then you would have the option to invest in this company because I wouldn't recommend to invest in the company that provides the service because it's mixing two different activities and we never know what could happen with the company providing the services. If something was to go wrong, you don't want it to touch the real estate. So then the other question would be, is it something that you want to move in and live in for yourself, or is it more of an investment property?

Cuz if it's for you to live in, I wouldn't recommend buying it with a company cuz you'll be using it. And then when you sell it, if you live in it and it's under your name, you don't have to pay taxes on the So that's better because it's your resident— residence of, um, principal residence. But if it's fully for rental income, then, and the excess cash is going to be your cash down, then we could start to seriously consider buying with a corporation. So this is something you can help the business owner?

Like, I help them to structure because often we'll— the holding company? Yes, because we'll start with just one. I don't recommend doing the holding right away because Yes. If you do it too early, it's still years of filing taxes for a company that you're not using just yet.

Okay. So I recommend creating the holding and adding it when you notice that you're accumulating excess cash. Okay. And so I help them with that structure, but then they will need to go ahead and find the financing for the, the company, just like you find financing for yourself when you're going to buy.

And that would be with the bank. Okay. Yeah. And is there some other common questions that they normally ask you when it comes to real estate?

Well, they will ask also about the taxation rates because investing rental income in a company could be different from investing it as an individual. So we have to look at that also, pros and cons. So these are the questions. And sometimes also they are considering investing with a friend.

Okay. So it's looking at, okay, how do we structure it so that you can use the company to finance the purchase, but then your friend maybe is not incorporated. So it's— these are things like, what are the good structures? These would be the questions we look at.

Okay, so, and guiding them also, what are some things that they should avoid when it comes to, uh, to minimize on tax, like you said, because you also have a degree in tax, right? Exactly. Okay. All right.

I don't know if there was any other point you wanted to make on the real estate subject. Well, another point for real estate could be if you're a business owner having excess cash, one interesting point is also, am I buying real estate that could be useful for my company? It's always fun to be able to mix business with investments, but really, let's say you're using this space and you notice that this is a big expense for your business because you have to pay for the rental. You could consider, why not having my own studio at some point?

And that studio could become an asset and it will gain value over time. So at the same time, you're also planning ahead for your older days because you could eventually sell it and just get the money out of it. And also, instead of giving your rent to someone else, then you're kind of giving it to yourself in a way. So it's the best of both worlds, I would say.

So that's one question also when it comes to business owners wanting to invest. It's good if you can consider that. That's a great option though. All right, so now we're going to move on to the short answer questions.

The first one for you is, what are some books that you recommend that business owners could read? I think if we're talking about someone who wants to become a business owner, often they will say, I want to start and be independent, but they don't know where to start. And I really like the book $100 Startup. I read it, but really back then when I was starting and I thought it was an interesting perspective and to see that you can start simply.

Sometimes people make it more complicated than it should be. You could start easily with not much and then take it from there, you know? Yeah. With $0 even sometimes, depending.

Depending. But it's true. Yeah. And another book I like is Profit First that I'm rereading at the moment.

So that's a good one for someone who's already running their business. It's always good to go back sometimes. And yeah, because then when I was reading it, it was like you're most likely reading it for the second time, but the first time you said, I'll get back to it, and you haven't. And because you didn't have property.

And now here you are. Yeah. Okay. And what does entrepreneurship mean to you?

For me, it means freedom. It's still a lot of work. I mean, I'm not going to lie, it's most likely going to be more work than if you choose to work as an employee, like my employee most likely I gave them the job I wish I would have if I had to work for someone. Like if I had to work for someone, that's the job I would have wanted.

Flexibility, working on fun things, the clients are nice. It's fine, you know, good life-work balance. But on the other end, for the person offering the job, when you become an employer, I won't lie, it's a lot of work. But for me, it's freedom in terms of creativity also, defining how you want your career to be and how you want to provide your services.

On, on the which form and how you will market yourself, and also potentially freedom to do it from anywhere if you have a business that can be run this way. So for me, that's what it means. And if you had to give yourself advice like 10 years ago, like if you could go back in time, what would you have told yourself? To be patient.

Sometimes you do so much and then you don't see the efforts paying off right away, so it could be discouraging because it will take time. I And sometimes I'll see friends or clients say, I've posted online, I've done all these things, but I haven't seen like any like results yet. And I'm like, it's normal. And then they're like, I was talking to this potential client, but then he ghosted me.

And I'm like, it's normal too. It's like, it will happen, but there's just not enough momentum for you to dismiss these little things that happen. How long did it take your social media like to start generating clients? I would say for me, you know, when I said, I think it was before we started or maybe during the interview and I said I gave myself 3 years at first, I would say it doesn't have to take that long today because I started with writing.

I think if I had started with videos because it would be maybe 2018, it would have been quicker. But for me, it was longer. So I think someone could see the results within 6 months to 1 year, quite frankly. Because now you're more able to have that visibility than when I started in 2015.

Okay. And what do you like about the city of Montreal? What I like about Montreal? I'm a foodie.

So there's always a new place to try. That's what I like the most, the diversity of restaurants. That's great. Well, Anne, it was a pleasure to have you on the show.

Thank you again. Until next time.