Jordan Perrin

The full conversation with Jordan Perrin, transcribed. Lightly formatted for reading.

What's your perspective on why most service businesses fail? Pretty good question. When people just think it's easy, they just start, oh, I'll do, I'll do this X, Y, and Z, and I'll make, uh, $10 million within 2 years. You know, like, you know, you're like that, uh, perfect world.

And then after you start, and then you realize, oh, okay, it's costing a lot of money to run the business. Oh, the insurance are expensive. I'm not approved for a loan, for a credit card, or for this, because you don't have any revenue personally because you started a business full-time. So now the banks are not looking at you.

The business are not failing. I think the people are quitting. That's my personal opinion, right? All right, Jordan, it's a pleasure to have you on the Montreal Entrepreneur Podcast.

Welcome. Thank you. For those who don't know your name or they don't know what you do, can you please tell us? Yes, uh, so my name is Jordan Parent and I'm the president of, uh, Joaklim.

It's a duct cleaning business here in Quebec. So we're basically operating in Montreal, Quebec City, Ottawa, and now Toronto since, yeah, 2 months. Okay. And how's that going?

It's a process, right? It's Ontario and Quebec are 2 different beasts. Clients are very different. So right now we're still in the learning curve, trial and error, but we're on the right path and very happy about the results we've been having.

That's very good. So before we get into— we dive deep into your story and how you've built the business that you have today. For somebody that is just tuning in and they're listening to the podcast, what are some of the key things you want them to get out of this? Resilience, persistence.

Just keep on going every day because it will— like, you know what's funny about entrepreneurship, which is personally my opinion, is we have to be kind of crazy to be doing entrepreneurship, to be entrepreneurs and like starting businesses, because we're working 100 hours a week mentally and like physically at the office or whatever from home for maybe 10 minutes of fame a month. When I say 10 minutes of fame, I mean like that one email that hits your inbox and like, yes, we're going forward with the deal, right? So we're trying, we're going to go through like 100 hours of hours and hours of pain just for one email. Yeah, when you put it like that, we do sound crazy.

But what made you get into that industry to begin with? How did it start? I actually got lucky. I'll be honest.

When I say lucky is because never in my life I would have said, yes, I'm going to go into the duct cleaning or construction business. Like never. You would have never hear me say something like this. I'm not a manual person.

And I'm not good with my hands. You know, I can barely do IKEA tables, you know what I mean? So how I started is pretty much during COVID I was still in university and one of my friends was doing installation for HVAC units. And we had that moment in March 2020 that we only essential workers were allowed to work and go outside for a couple of weeks.

So basically what happened, he lost all of his contracts. Wow. Or like, at least he couldn't go out. So he's like, all the clients like canceled and everything.

And at some point he's like, hey, I need help. I'm trying to get out of the house. I need to get out of the house. I can't stay home anymore.

Okay. I have like, the guy works like 80 hours a week for the past 15, 20 years. And now he's at home doing nothing for more than 2 weeks. Like, I understand.

I'm gonna lose it. Like, I need to get out of the house. Can you help me find contracts and just get back out there? I'm like, okay.

Okay, so opened Facebook, Facebook Marketplace, started running Facebook ads. Ads and stuff. And, uh, that's how I started. So at first, me, it was just like a sideline.

I'm in university finishing school, uh, last semester. What field were you in? Business. Business.

Yeah. And so basically, just while being a student and being locked down at home, just running ads and like Facebook Market, answering clients. And, and I figured like there's actually a business there. Okay.

And that first year was like a very, very hot summer. Okay, that's filled. So yeah, so that was good. Everybody was home, people were receiving money from the government, right?

So everybody wanted to buy, and they were amazing subsidy, like, uh, subvention, subsidies from the government. So yeah, so that's basically how it started. And down the line I went into the cleaning. Okay.

So then you started working with him as well and helping him. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Okay.

That's, that's very interesting. That's how I started. But when you told your friends, I don't know, your family that this is what you're doing now, what were their reaction? To be honest, they were kind of happy for me.

Okay. Because every time I do talk about like the industry we're in, I feel like we're in the same kind of industry. Yeah. They look at me like, oh, You've nailed it.

Like, you didn't try to go something too, uh, too fancy. You just went something solid, like COVID-proof, recession-proof. Ah, that's what, that's what made them realize that it was essential. Exactly.

Because all the, uh, there's a lot of white-collar businesses that they can operate at that time. Okay, I was expecting the opposite reaction, you know, but, uh, that, that's pretty good. COVID did, uh, so would you say that COVID kind of propelled the business a little bit to Well, the idea, yes. For sure.

Because otherwise, before that, I was in the like a tech world, right? Developing mobile apps and everything. And I had like a launch of an app prior. Okay.

A couple of months before. But COVID did shut down everything because my app was for the nightlife and hospitality business and tourism. Like the wrong industry at the wrong time. Great industry, by the way.

But it's just the timing of stuff just was not there for me. So that's basically how I went from like a fun business to what I call a boring business. But now exactly what we're trying to do is turn those boring businesses into fun businesses. I love that.

And you've played sports. Yeah. What are some of the skills that enabled you to operate the business to make it become something more like systematized? Honestly, I always viewed business like football.

Okay, elaborate. So football, right? Well, in Canada we have 12 players on the field and you need all 12 players to be in sync at the same time for the play to work, like to achieve, like, you know, like win the play versus the offense. Teamwork, teamwork, right?

So for me, it's It's always been to like do your job. And all the coaches, when you're like growing up, they'll do, do your job. Don't worry about the other position, just do what you're asked to do. And if everybody does their job perfectly, technically we should win 9 times out of 10, right?

So for me, we need the right players at the right position, and everybody has to do their, their job and understand each other's job to be in sync. But without like, you know, overstepping, not micromanaging, just Do your job and make sure that on the team everybody is doing their job too. Their job too. Let's go back a little bit.

You're just the two of you. You started to doing the work. So I'm guessing this is now year one. And when did you decide to start bringing other people?

The following winter, I spoke with one of my partners now, and I told him what I've done the past year. And he's like, oh, like, that's interesting. And that person was also in that industry, used to work in that industry a couple of years back. Okay.

So he's like, hey, And I knew I needed like people to build the business with because you can't— for me, you can't build by yourself. Exactly. Just like when you were playing football. Exactly.

You need more. You need a head coach, you need offensive coordinator, defensive coordinator. Like you need a team to build something, right? Yes.

So basically fast forward, became partners. And another one of our friends that we grew up with also called me like, hey, he told me about the project. Honestly, I have a lot to bring to the project. And I was like, you know what?

You're a perfect fit for us. You're bringing something different that we're not bringing to the table. So when we all met, it just was just like, once again, a perfect sync. So how many, like, team players are you in the team?

Right now we're 3 players. 3? Yeah. Okay, so then you come together, and then the next year what happens?

It went from the side hustle to, okay, let's open this as a real business, which is Direct Claim today, right? So Direct Claim was created in 2021, so one year after all the COVID thing I was telling you about. And then that's when we just started planning, okay, what are we trying to do with the business? And down the line we pivoted into the cleaning because we figured there's like, no, there's an property for us there, and we just seized it.

Okay, so you just launched? Yeah. No side hustle, let's make this thing real. Yeah.

And your family is okay with that? Yeah. Well, yeah, by that time you have a proof of concept. How many clients did you get in the first year or so?

Uh, first year, since we were only doing like everything like the installation aspect, so a couple of hundreds. Oh wow. But then after, when we went to the cleaning, that's where like it's a different process, right? It's not the same margins, it's not the same volume, you know.

It's a volume business, right? So it's I'm not going to say harder, but yeah, it's way harder. Which one is harder? The cleaning.

Way harder. And what is the scrappiest thing you had to do to get the business afloat? Or maybe not just you, as a team. Like when we hear the stories about those tech entrepreneurs, you know, they would sleep in their offices, you know, and things like that.

Um, honestly, it's just so many. There's not like one event I can like, you know, point out. It's just so many things. I just had to sacrifice so much, you know, personally.

Okay. You know, you see all your friends going to corporate positions, making good salaries, you know, like they're moving forward with their life and you're just looking at your credit card just growing because you have to still live but you don't have a salary. So you're in debt. How did that make you feel?

I was saying earlier, we live as entrepreneurs, we live for those moments. We live for that pressure. What's the word? I don't know what— The drive?

Yeah, to have the drive. You have that— Not resilience. Not resilience. I don't know the word, but it's just, it's in your veins.

Pain and you have to make it happen. You know, it's just, it's just straight. It is driving you, motivating, motivating you to do it. It's like in sport as well.

Like you feel the need, like you have to like, come fonce. Yeah, exactly. You have to do it. And just when you see this, a lot of people just, oh, I quit.

Oh, it's not for me. It's too complicated. It's too hard. And at the same time, me, it was like, I have to make it happen because I have to make it happen.

Like literally, I just, I have to do it, right? I can't be living like this. And what did you feel like you had something to prove? Yes.

To you and the people around you? Which one was the most— I'm lucky enough to have a family that is so supportive. And I think that's also a, you know, something very powerful when you have your life partner and your family just supporting you. Yeah.

And believing in you. Sometimes they believe more in you than you believe in yourself. So it's like you have no rights to quit because they're not quitting on you. Exactly.

You're not by yourself. Like you're in it with other people. And I'll be honest, like I have a great family. So let's say something would happen, I would lose everything.

I would sleep— I wouldn't sleep outside. I would still be able to go to my father's place or, you know, my grandparents. There's so many options in my life that I always felt like, okay, I have an insurance plan, let's say. They're like your anchor, you know?

They're my anchor, exactly. Right? My life partner at that time, which is still my life partner today, she was there with me the entire time. Nice.

Step by step. So I just— You're not alone. I'm not alone. And I knew the project was going to work.

But right now, we're in the mud. And to be able to go the other side— You have to get through it. You have to get through it. And it takes months, years, and sacrifices.

So some of the sacrifices, like you said, where you see your friends, they going to, I don't know, maybe they have the big corporate job. Maybe you couldn't go to all the parties. I don't know. Was there any other sacrifices you would say that you had to— Yeah, for sure.

Like, you don't talk about parties, talking about trips, talking about this, talking about just hanging out with the boys. Sometimes you just can't hang out with the boys. Because you don't even have financially money to go with them, right? And it is part of the process.

And I never saw that as a failure. And once again, my people always like supporting me and they, they know I'm building something great. So it's like, please keep on going. Do it.

That's amazing. Keep pushing. Like, to be honest, you're not missing out. You're not missing out on anything right now.

That's great. So not only you have a great family that is supporting you, your friend circle as well is also supporting you. Two anchors. So then you had to keep going and prove them that they believe in you and that you will make it happen.

You don't want to disappoint them. Yeah. Like, I'm not doing it for them, but at the same time, I am doing it for them because they believed in me. Yes.

When I was down and I had nothing, they were always there to pick me. To support you. Like, to get you back up. Exactly.

Yeah. That's very interesting. I like that. And do you remember what was your biggest win?

Let's say, I don't know, in year 1, year 2, and or what was there a big mistake that you made made also that humbled you, either win or mistake? I'll start with the mistake because that's the first one I remember, because the wins— I have multiple little wins that became one big win at the end of the year. But like, the mistake was year one, and I think that's a common mistake for entrepreneurs or people starting out the business. They only look at the top line, they don't look at the bottom line.

When I say top line, bottom line, it's revenue versus profit. So, oh, we're making money, nice, cool, oh nice. Then after the 3 months, accounting is sending all the, you know, like statements, but the quarterly, um, excuse me, the reports. You're like, we lost money, but for 3 months I thought I was making money because we're making revenue, but I was not like understanding, understanding the expenses aspect.

And revenues and expenses don't come at the same time. So yeah, it humbled me because we were selling a product and service and we were losing money every time. It took us like 4 to 6 months between— before realizing, wow, we're losing money on it. What would be now your advice for those new entrepreneurs going through that situation?

Know your numbers. It's just, you know, your numbers. Yeah, but people always say that, oh, you have to know your numbers, but what does that actually mean? Like, what steps do they have to take to get to know their numbers?

Uh, well, I'll talk for me. Yeah, sure. I'm not a CPA, I'm not an accountant, I'm not a financial, uh, advisor. But what do you do?

Yeah, that's good. What I've done is, first of all, surround myself what a great team, good accountant. Second of all, it's just breaking down every month or every week, depending on the time you have and like the team you have, all the expenses coming in. So fixed expenses, you know exactly what's going to come out next month with or without the sales, right?

That's mandatory. Like your lease is mandatory, your trucks or whatever kind of business you have, it's out there. And once again, I'm in the service business, so that's not my expertise. So just knowing what's coming out and when you do make a job, understand your margins.

So if you sell something, a product service for $100 and it costs you $50, you know, at least you're like your, your gross, your gross, you know, there's $50. And then after from there, break down the profits from there. But I just wanted to see like what were some of the steps because the person that you are right now, it's not the person you were back then. Like, like you said, a little bit crazy.

We don't know. You don't know what you don't know. You don't know what you don't know. That's the only, that's one of the main problem.

And then you're going to fall, you have to get back up and then go stronger. Which is exactly what you did. So now that we know how you started, we know things were not good in year 1, you have new partners, you have a proof of concept, now it's the next level. You're growing.

So now year 3, something happened, a burnout. Yeah. Can you take us there? Yeah.

So basically year 1, it was all fun and games. We don't have a big team, so you don't have to manage that many people. There's not a lot, it's small. So it's easy, it's still fun.

Year 2, you're growing. In year 3, clients are starting, like, you know, they know who Dirk Them is. So now they're calling in. Our marketing strategies are way better.

They're like, you know, they're optimizing and everything. We have a bigger team. So we have to hire a lot of people and hire fast. Okay, so how many people were you in year 2 compared to year 3, approximately?

Approximately like around 10 to 15 people to maybe like 35 to 40. That's a lot, yeah. It's a lot. When you do look at it, like for me now, it's like, it's not a lot.

Still a lot, but I mean, like, the jump— yeah, the thing is you don't know what you don't know. And managing 1 employee versus managing 10 employees is so different. So when you go from 10 to 30, what used to work for 10 doesn't— not work for 30. Give me an example of something— the system's breaking at that point, from 10 to 30 employees.

What— just an example would be just for vacation. How does it work? Who can take a vacation? For how long and when.

Yeah. When like the guideline is not perfect, people, everyone wants to take a vacation at the same time. Oh, I want to take a vacation. Oh, but you can't.

But why? Why can't I? It's like, yeah, because you have to make, create the rules. And there's like, there's no stability, like a free-for-all, right?

And then especially where the big mistake happens, I think it's in the onboarding. In the onboarding. The onboarding, which comes to the rules, right? Because when you, we had to hire a lot of people and hire them fast.

Therefore, hey, you want to work? Come work. Okay, you're starting tomorrow. Here's your polo.

Here's your equipment. That's a YouTube video. Like, you know, just copy this there. Obviously, it's an example.

We had like a little training and everything, but it's just, it goes on very, very fast. And humans love when things are simple. So when you do rush them, it's for them, it's also, it's unknown. It's a new work.

It's a new job. It's, they don't know who, they don't know you. They don't know the product. They're not they're not used to the job yet, right?

They're not comfortable, right? They're not comfortable. So therefore you won't have the best version of them. So this is why, like, I feel like the onboarding— and that's one of my partners that went like 2 years ago, the team, like an onboarding video.

I think it was Leila or Mosey. Or Mosey. Yeah, that's— that made the podcast. And it just hit me and like, it's true.

The onboarding starts 1, 2, 3 weeks before. So when you come to day zero. Yeah. The employee knows exactly what he's getting himself into.

And also us as a business, we also know what's going to happen next, right? Like we have time to prepare and the person has time to like, I'm not going to say adapt, but like assimilate. Yeah. And just get into the role.

And when they're in, we have to follow process for everyone. We can't assume someone is ready to work right now. He might sound ready during the interview, but then after he goes on the first day of the job and he's like hesitating or like, I don't know how to do it. But in the interview, you're like, but you were so good explaining.

And some other, like others are like, during the interview process, you're like, oh, it's going to be long. It's going to be heavy. First day, the person just kills it. It's like, oh.

It's like you never know. You never know. So if you never know, make sure you put like a process in place that puts A, B, and C. So everybody that comes in, now we started doing the onboarding properly.

That's the year out now, this year. And it changed everything. And even for like the, like the amount of employees are still here today that we hired, say, early this year, we're still here last year. And but at the same time, we're like in the tornado.

We need to do the job. We need to push. And it was hard to keep the employees and we can't even be mad at the people leaving. It's just we didn't do our job properly.

Yeah, we're supposed to give them— I'm not going to say a safe place, but it's like a clear expectation. Yeah. Like, give them a comfortable environment of work. So while if we rush them and they have never done the job, it's not good.

So yeah, and we had like in the admin, we didn't have enough managers in place, okay, for the amount of employees. And the manager we had in place were still new managers. So everybody was new, everybody was new. And that, that's, that's the situation, that's what happened.

Even for me, it was new. I never had 30 employees before. Exactly. So it's like we're all learning together And I think where the burnout, the pressure I put myself, it's not even the people that did put the pressure, it was me because you always feel responsible for them.

You can't miss out on a pay. And were you getting complaints from people? Because if they're not doing their job right or— Yes and no. Obviously, always like, even if you're doing your job properly, you'll have complaints, right?

But the thing is a lot of people just did not know what the issue was. It's just even for them, it's like, I can't really make a complaint. I don't know what to complain about. I'm just not comfortable.

I'm just like not myself. And like, and it was chaotic. It was chaotic. Yeah, it was very chaotic.

But we did make it through. And a lot of the people that did stay with us, like today, well, they're still managers or like even like better positions. Oh, I say better. I mean, like different positions are nailing it and they're good because they went through the chaos last year.

And this year we have the onboarding, which is— I'm not going to say perfect because it's always a work in progress, but very good onboarding. We have process in place, we have SOPs, we have a playbook. But who did you have to bring in to like set things straight? Operators?

What did you— how did you go from chaos to now things are a lot better? Because it took a while to implement the systems. Like, this is how we do the onboarding. This is what you do first.

You know, it's like a lot of training. I wish I could say one person, obviously. There's one of the first person that came to Joakim, Valentin. The guy started from nothing.

When I say he started nothing, I'm not talking about life. I'm talking about at work. Started like, hey, look at the YouTube video. That's what we're going to be doing now.

Okay, let's try it out. And he's not a guy that was not— it's like his main job, right? Then from this, okay, okay, now let's hire people. Let's become a manager, train them.

And now he's just nailing every aspect of the business because he did all the positions in the business from tech to sales to HR to account, he's done it all, right? So right now he was— he's a huge help for us. And now he's also like mentoring and managing other people who are actually becoming better and better every day. That's amazing.

And the people have the skill set. It's just sometimes it's just having the guidance, the guidance or just the time to experience, right? It's more about the time than the— because you are going to make errors, trial and error. And we all make mistakes.

I'm the first one to make mistakes. And I feel like if we don't make mistakes, that means we're not trying or we're stalling. That's my— that's true. That's the way I see it.

That's true, not testing new things. New waters. Yeah, that makes sense. And you're blessed to have somebody like that with an owner's mindset, basically.

Exactly. Yes, that— the owner— the owner's mentality is something we are looking, uh, every day, especially in the management positions. And yeah, there's other people on the team. Once again, when I say start from zero, started like, you know, entry level, just come in.

I'm not, I'm not sure what I'm getting myself into. It's a new company, but I know they're motivated and they're, they're, they're fun fine. So let's give it a shot. And from there it's like, oh, there's an opportunity for me to like to grow in the business.

And they seized it. We didn't have to impose it on them. They came in and they seized the opportunity. But last year it was new to all of us, and we have to understand how we work, who you are, who I am, and the process and all the new employees.

It's like, oh, they all have lives outside of work, you know. It's like, and you have to like— and someone's, uh, girlfriend left him, someone has problems with X, Y, and Z, you know, so they have to bring this to work. Like, so now KPIs, there's also the human aspect behind it. Yeah, right.

So it's, yeah, so it's just so chaotic. And I had all the pressure like on my shoulders. And they're not the ones that did put it on me. You put it on yourself.

I put it on myself because I felt like I owe, I owe them. Yeah, that, right. It's like you guys are working so hard. You guys are here every day.

In the tornado. You guys are not quitting on me. I can't quit on you guys. Definitely, definitely.

But then the pressure, the pressure, the pressure, the fatigue, the fatigue, the problems, the problems hitting. Everything is hitting at the same time. And at some point you— and the delegating aspect because you don't want to put too much on their plate, right? You don't want to push them like— and they'd make a burnout.

But at the same time that you have to delegate smartly. And that's where I think in the past year I learned a lot is how to delegate smartly. And it's also the team, the managers and all the employees have way more experience. So, and they have that owner's mentality.

So it's crucial sometimes, like there's problems happening and I'm like, I'm always mad, right? There's an issue that I'm always mad, but they're mad too. And like, I see them mad. I'm like, okay, I'm not going to say anything because, yeah, you know, so that's pretty good.

But now I understand what was happening inside the business, the chaos, because you're growing fast. A lot of people, which all trying to figure things out, which is normal at that, at that stage. Growth both pains, right? That's what they call it.

It's stretching yourself, the team. But what did that look like in your personal life? How did that burnout transpire there? It did affect me a lot.

It affected my family, friends, myself. Like, sometimes I'm gonna say, like, I don't mind, I was just crying for no reason. Like, no reason whatsoever. It's just like, boy, why are you crying?

I don't know. I just don't know. It's like, you people will talk to you, you just You're just like, you're not there anymore. It's, so for a couple of weeks, it was very, very hard.

I was not eating. And I'm not saying it, I say the word burnout, but once again, it's, I had it easy. It was very light compared to other people I know they're going through way worse. And it was just a fatigue, more like a professional fatigue than like an actual burnout.

And some people, they just can't move for a couple of weeks. Me, I was still at the office. I was still moving. I was just, slow, slow, and I was just not there anymore, right?

And how did you get out of that? Once again, my life partner, family, and my friends and my team, because they knew when they saw me. That's where I knew I had something solid, because I had the burnout around, like, say, September-ish, and they were now in the business, like, for at least, like, maybe 6 months, some of them a year. But that's where they really took over, okay?

And like, hey, take a week off, relax, we got you. And when I came back, everything was doing like— everything was fine. So it's like— and I was like, I was super proud of them because I'm like, okay, we have a team now. We have a real team.

And usually when you go on vacation, you're all stressed. Oh, are they gonna do this X, Y, and Z? And now it's like they're doing X, Y, and Z by themselves. That's amazing.

Yeah. And the support of your family, your partner, and the team. Yeah. So it seems like you're surrounded by good people.

That's crucial to go to the next level. And what would you say that low moment in your life during the business, what did that teach you that no success could ever— Good question. Surround yourself with the right people. Yeah, I know.

I like— it's been like a common theme today, like, just surrounding yourself with the right people. Like my family, my girlfriend, my friends, my, my team at work. Are great. They're not only good at their job, they're great people and they're great humans, right?

So even for when we do hire, I'd rather hire someone with zero experience, but you can sense— obviously it's a pre-interview, right? It's an interview, so you can't really tell if the person is going to be a good person or not. And I'm not saying the others are not good people, it's just for us, my personality, our personality, our fit, our business values and everything, that person is the right fit. And after, I don't care about your education.

How would you describe the person? Like, can you tell just by sitting in front of them, like, ah, they have some— the thing that I'm looking for? And what is that? It's hard to explain.

And that's always one thing I had, like, throughout my life, is like a good sixth sense of like just feeling it and just knowing the person is right for me. Did I make mistakes? Yes, obviously. Some people I thought were good for me, they weren't good for me.

But like most of the times, I'm accurate and I'm right. So that's— You listen to that voice now. I listen to that voice. And sometimes I did not listen to that voice.

And I went with that, oh, the person has experience, the person X, the person Y, Z, whatever. And next thing you know, you always have that little voice of like, uh, mm, uh, mm. But you don't listen because it makes sense business-wise. Then again, in 6 months, you're— You realize you were right.

You weren't right, yeah. But you weren't right. Yeah, you weren't right. I fully understand what you mean because I think the same thing happened to us in the first few years.

We would just hire just anybody because we need to feel, you know, somebody has to do the work. But once again, it cost us a lot. Hiring the bad person to come in can destroy your business overnight. So hiring therefore is such a crucial part of the business.

And now we learned a lot on our the hiring, the onboarding, and then holding each other accountable. It's a great recipe. And I think that we're saying the same thing. And once again, it's the same thing in your personal life.

You know, when you're surrounding yourself with people, you should surround yourself with people that— yeah, that you want to have a coffee with and your family, like you say. Yes, it matters because people outside that circle can criticize you. Things. But when you come home, you have that peace of mind.

Well, I know you don't have kids yet, right? Not yet. When you have 3, so my husband, it creates a safe space. So I fully understand what you, what you mean.

Like, I don't have kids, but when I come home at night, my girlfriend is there, I feel, I feel safe. I feel I can just disconnect for a moment. Obviously you're always thinking about the business, right? Of course.

Yeah. And also she understands understands how I am, and she's not trying to make me disconnect because she knows why I'm working hard. Exactly. And she's supporting me, and she's supporting me in the process, right?

Because she knows, like, she sees a vision, she understands the vision, and she believes in the vision. So she's all in on helping me. And also on her personally, she's working hard also for her career, and I'm supporting her in her career also, right? So it's, uh, it's a win-win situation.

Yeah, you have to be in a win-win situation with everyone in your life. For sure. And in terms of KPIs, we talk a little bit about that. And now we're going to segue into more systems and mindset delegation.

You talk— you touched up on that as well. What are some of the KPIs that you look for to see if you're going in the right direction? Once again, I think KPIs, you shouldn't have too many KPIs because after it's just like too many is like not enough, right? And not having KPIs and just going with the flow, it's like playing a football game or a soccer game or a hockey game without a scoreboard.

So, the first 15, 20 minutes you're intense, you're going to be playing and everything, but then after it's like, "Oh, no one's counting," right? So, that's where people are starting to slack. But in terms of KPI, we try to get not too many KPIs and we have KPIs per department. Okay.

You know, because we're not doing the same thing. And once again, when you put all those KPIs together and people are all pushing toward that one objective, that's where I feel like you win the game. Like I said, in football, in defense, the goal is to have less yards and less points against you. And on offense is to have the most yards and most points, you know, like score more.

So they have two different KPIs. And at the end of the day, they both like, you know, like do their job properly and the KPIs are like they're on target. Well, technically they should be winning the game most of the times, right? Yes.

Stuff can happen, but in general, like you're, odds of winning are just way higher. So for us, every department have KPIs based on what they're bringing to the business. Give me an example of one department and what does that look like? So the department would be like, you know, the dispatching.

Okay. Will be like a dollar per kilometer, meaning you don't want— and the reason why is simple. You don't want your technician to be doing 100 kilometers a day and bringing a certain, like, you know, and for X amount of revenue. And the reason is simple.

The more time he's in the car. First of all, they don't like to be driving in the traffic the entire day. So you're paying someone to be doing nothing versus doing— paying someone doing a cleaning or installation or whatever you're doing, right? Okay.

So for us, the less traveling means the more revenue and profit because you're probably able to squeeze in another job after. So then you have to create a route for them. Yeah. Oh, okay.

So you have to optimize the routes. So for them it's like, oh, it's easier to just put 2 clients Oh, one in the West Island, one in the East End. Yeah, cool, whatever. Like, my job is done.

But you're better off having two clients in the East End, and tomorrow we'll go in the West Island. Okay. Because we're not wasting an hour and a half— like, now it's an hour and a half in Montreal— but, you know, we're not wasting two hours driving, which costs money, right? Yes.

So for us, that was like, that's one KPI we put in place, and the team is doing a great job, and they're optimizing the routes and making sure the technician is not moving. Sometimes what technicians going from Blainville in the first year, because you don't have that many technicians, you don't have that many clients, so you just have to do whatever it takes. From Blainville to Longueuil to come back to Laval. You know, it's like— Most of the time is spent in the car.

Most of the time is spent in the car. They're not happy because it's not fun being in the car that long. They'd rather move, being like, you know, in the machines and stuff and do like service calls than driving. So then that's good.

Good. Um, I guess you learned all of that mostly in year 3, to understand what system, what to optimize, what lever to like, I don't know, uh, increase and/or decrease in some areas. Systems. What would you say is, I don't know, what, what one system kind of catapult a certain department in your business that makes a big difference?

Once again, KPI. Just adding KPI to the departments. Now they know what— they know what to do already. They, they knew they're good at their job.

It's just now they have a challenge and they know exactly where, okay, we have to hit X amount. So they're now, they're dialed in as a team to reach that goal together. So now people are accountable for something, right? And they hold each other accountable.

And when they have that ownership mentality, for them, it's like, it's personal when they don't reach the KPI. But were they reluctant to start applying those new things or they were okay? To be honest, they were okay because once again, the people we chose on the team are people that want to work. And when I say work, it's not just work, it's just they want like to go to the next level.

They have that ownership mentality. They're— they love the challenge. And what specific mindset shift, uh, enabled you to stop being the bottleneck at one point? Yeah, to becoming a true leader.

Because Jordan year one and now, it's not the same person. It's not the same person. What enabled me is understanding that I was the bottleneck. And I was hurting the team more than anything else.

Maybe they didn't feel it at the time, but I was a bottleneck. So when I understood, okay, what you used to do in year 1 and 2, you can't do it anymore, you know? But who made you realize that? Or was it self-reflect?

It's a mix of everything, right? It's like having conversations. You have a conversation with your partners, conversation with the managers, conversation with some employees, conversation with your family, friends. Friends, girlfriend, other entrepreneurs, reading books, listening to podcasts.

And at some points, like your brain starting to gather all the information. And sometimes like me was a burnout. The burnout happens like, okay, now everything that everyone told me and my girlfriend did tell me like a million times, you're going to burn out, be careful. Like, not chill, because not like relax.

It's just work smarter, not harder. That's, I think, where the— okay, I can't be in every department. Yeah. Every day dealing with all the problems when we hired managers to do it, right?

So at first, maybe I was a bit too much with the managers. You're jumping in. I'm jumping in. And I did, I did get the message from one of the managers, hey, like, you're asking me to do this, but then again, after you come in and you're— you took over the meeting, and how do I look?

I'm like, you know what? And that's what it hit me. Happened with me a couple times, but When he did tell me, like, what? You're right.

And you know what? I apologize because I used to run all the meetings. Exactly. So it's just, it was not like, it's not personal, it's not, you're not, it's just I'm just so used to it.

So now after I took a huge step back, when I come into meetings, they run the show, they run the meeting, they do. And I'm there, I'll add in one or two points, but that's pretty much it. Like, it's your team. And even when I do want to pass a message, I go to you for, for you to say to the team, just to make sure that there's one point of contact.

Because even for employees, it's getting confusing. Yeah. Okay, who do I talk to? Who do I report to and why?

True. And when people see you coming in, oh, I can talk to Jordan now. They come to Jordan. When you have 40 people coming to Jordan, it's not good.

Even if the question is 2 minutes, it takes 2 minutes of your time, and you have 40 questions. Yeah. Now you're at 80 minutes. You know, like, almost like 2 hours of your day is just answering questions that weren't supposed to be asked to you, like, you know, like, weren't you to answer in the first place, right?

So that's where I, like, I understood, like, okay, to not be the bottleneck, I have to delegate properly. I have to trust my team. You know, we talked about football earlier. Do your job and trust your teammate to do their job.

Don't try to overcompensate and, like, try to do to do their job because you won't be doing your job after. And that's where the offense or defense will see there's a gap there and they'll attack and make some points or like stop you, whatever. Definitely. So the pain that you went through during that burnout, would you say that it was necessary for you to— Yeah.

And unfortunately, my personality is like this. And if you ask my family, they'll be like, you know, so there's like when growing up, there's kids, you tell them once. They understand. They don't make the mistake anymore.

Right. And there's me, which tell him once, twice, three times, you know what, just let him hit the wall and we'll be there to catch him. Because when he's going to hit the wall, he's going to understand. So that's pretty much my personality.

I try to work on this, obviously. But you got the lesson. Now you're on another level. Yeah.

So the person in year 1, year 3, now we're almost in year 5. Yeah. Tell me more. You talked about the culture.

Owner's mentality, which is very good. You already know, you have a sense when you're talking to somebody, is this person going to be a good fit or not a good fit? Are you still involved in all the hiring just for that part, or can you trust your team to— I trust my team to do that. And it's funny because at first I was doing all the hiring and I'm still involved in their hiring.

I'm still looking at the, like, you know, the pre-interviews, interview, final interviews. And sometimes they'll ask me for my opinion. Opinion, but I do trust the team. We have a good recruiting process now, recruitment in the HR.

Since I'm not as involved, let's say, in the department of sales as I used to be, like a lot, 2, 3 years ago, yeah, I don't have the same touch with the clients and with the team and the climate of the team, if that makes sense. So when the manager, like, it's a sales manager, tell me, tells me like, hey, we need to hire that person, Obviously, I will give my, my two cents. Okay. But I have to trust you because you're in it 40, 60 hours a week, and I'm, I'm there 5 hours a week.

So I see, I have to respect your opinion. So, and once again, we make mistakes. We hire sometimes around the wrong person, but we hire slow and we fire fast. The goal is not to fire, but it happens, right?

Do you remember your first the first person you fired? Oh yeah, it was bad. It was so bad. It was very— you dragged it too long.

Yeah, it was awkward. And like, we're like sitting in this— my first office was like maybe 100 square feet. So we're like sitting down like face to face and it's like, oh okay. And the person's like, okay, do I finish my day or I leave?

It's like, oh yeah, true, uh, whatever, whatever you want. Like, I don't want to make you— like, you know, it's like out of respect for you, I would— we just fired you in the way we fired the person. It was impactful. I know for a fact the person, we— they came back to work for us a couple, uh, a year and a half after.

Yeah, it was just— it was our first employee also, so I was still learning. Yeah, it was not a good fit at the moment because the business was pivoting fast and that person was hired for something else and just were not a great fit. You're not a bad person and you're a great employee, just yes, for what we need now, you're— that's not your skill set, right? So, but it was very painful And it took me like 3 hours before.

The entire morning I was just thinking about that. Yeah, it's not fun. Yeah, it was not fun. And when it happened after, it was like, it was the right decision.

So obviously when you go home and sleep, you can sleep because it was the right decision. It was done in respect. You know, it was not done out of disrespect. No, of course not.

Of course not. Yeah, but I think for us, I think we're too nice sometimes. You're like, oh no, but they are good people. You like the person, you like the, you know, Maybe when you're talking to them, it's fun.

But if they're not doing their job right, or maybe there's a misalignment, yes, then it be— it becomes very hard to say, well, we love you, but unfortunately you cannot stay. It took us a long time to understand that we have to make the hard call. We have to let the person tell them the truth and not just drag it over weeks and months. And that always backfires at the end.

Always backfire. Always cost us even more. And that's a lesson we had to learn the hard way too. And you see, one of my partners did send me some, I think audiobook or podcast or whatever.

I just remember the information, that's all I know, is employees should never be surprised. Yeah. If they get fired. And when I said obviously you can always be surprised, like, oh, I didn't see it coming, but like we had meetings prior.

It's not like I woke up today, you made a mistake, you're fired. It's like, hey, one-on-one, say right now, like, what you're doing at work, it's, it's not cutting it. You have to, like, you know, get back on your feet or whatever, you know. There's, there's something like, there's, there's been a conversation.

Yeah. Where the person is being warned, like, hey, I'm just telling you right now, your job is in jeopardy right now. Exactly. If we don't have a, like, you know, 180 in the next 2 or 3, whatever, like the amount of time, unfortunately we'll have to part ways.

It's not personal, it's just based on the facts that we're mentioning, it won't cut it. So when you do let's say a month from now, meet with the person, 90% of the time they're aware of like, hey, yeah, we had a conversation, it did not get fixed, I understand. So, but when people are getting fired and they're like, they're surprised and like, well, why didn't you just tell me that my numbers weren't good? Yeah, so many things in business we have to learn.

I think in the service business, people think they could just go, they know how to do the work. They're like, oh, you know what, I'm just gonna start my business and do it myself. But there's so many other skills that you read once you jump in, you realize, I don't know how to hire. I don't know my financials.

I don't know how to build relationships with clients and so forth and so on. Yeah, I don't know. What's your perspective on why most service businesses fail? Like you said, some people just think it's easy.

Yeah, they just start, oh, I'll do, I'll do this X, Y, and Z and I'll make $10 million within 2 years. You know, like, you know, you're like that perfect world. And then after you start and then you realize, oh, Oh, okay. It's costing a lot of money to run the business.

Oh, the insurance are expensive. Oh, I'm not approved for a loan, for a credit card, or for this because you don't have any revenue personally because you started a business full-time. So now the banks are not looking at you. It's like it's a whole process of like people— I think the business are not failing.

I think the people are quitting. That's my personal opinion, right? I think they're just quitting on the business. Yeah.

Because you have to go through the mud. First, you have to go through that down where we lost money for 6 months. Imagine if we just, oh, we lost money for 6 months. Yeah.

Oh yeah, it's not a business for us. Okay, let's shut it down and start something new and start something new. But then after, it's just a process of doing the same thing over, all over and over again and making quick buck here and there. But you're trying to build a business, you need to build foundations.

And unfortunately, like a house, when you do the foundation on your house, it's not pretty. There's dust. It's, yeah, it's just ugly. And the people, they just want to do the painting and like decorating, right?

Yeah. But you have to go through the process of— Yeah. And then by starting something new, then they realize the grass is not greener on the other side. It's not greener.

Same problems follow you. Yeah. Until you learn and then you move forward. Yeah.

And once again, I feel like right now with that gen— like that gen— the generation right now, the era we're in with all the TikToks, Instagram, and people like selling— I'm not saying the people selling the course are the problem, selling a dream. Oh, buy my course and you'll make $1 million. You know, oh, do this and you'll make $100K within the first 4 weeks. It's like there's so many— like, I'm not— some people actually do it and make money.

Like, kudos to them. Like, good job. 9% won't make money because it's not realistic. You know, it's like you have to go through the mud once again.

You have to build the foundation to build something in the long run. And it takes years. And years. Yeah, before pain, going through the mud, prerequisites.

Yeah, before you go to the next level. Once again, that's my personal opinion. I think you're right. There are things that we're not going to learn if we don't face them or make mistakes.

So like you say, hit a wall. Then I guess everybody's different, but maybe there are people, they could just listen to a podcast and then to be able to avoid, or read, read a few books. There are things that we can avoid, of course, but it's inevitable that we're going to make mistakes when running a business, right? Say the wrong thing to the wrong person and all that stuff, all that stuff, right?

Now let's move on to relationships. What does that mean for you? Like, who— because when you're moving to the next level, it's not just maybe Facebook ads or Google ads. I don't know how you market for your clients, but you have to build relationships and with other people.

I don't know, how do you Was there any points in there you want to mention? But like networking or things like that? I feel like in business you need a mix of everything. And when you're only depending on one thing, it won't work.

It might work, but most of the time it won't work for the long run. So let's say you talk about relationship. Oh, we have a client. He's my only client.

But client takes— right now is retiring in 2 years. Yeah. And the other person taking his place doesn't like you or his cousin runs the same kind of business, you know. So you're going to lose your entire business if you're only running Facebook ads.

Let's say the servers of Facebook are are down for a week, what are you doing? If Google is shutting down or like, you know, tripling their price for Google Ads, what are you doing? If you're only like fixed on one relationship, we'll say, you know, it won't work on the long run. It might work on the short run, you might capitalize on it, but you have to be able to diversify yourself.

So, and after, there's a million ways of doing it. Then after, it depends on the industry, depends on so many things. But, and every year you should also always review your relationships and is that relationship still win-win? When I say win-win, I mean like Google, if they triple the price, is it still a win-win?

They're winning. Now you're paying triple the price. So it depends after if you have the margins to be able to pay 3x what you're paying now, that's up to you. But when you're, you're spending tens of thousands of dollars a month on Google Ads, you're going to be quickly at $100K a month.

Yeah. So you have to make sure that you're getting that money back. Exactly. And you always have to be able to like pivot pivot your— when you say relationship, right, on a yearly.

So for 2 years you might work a certain way. Oh, okay, now we're the— like, the business is evolving. That business is not as efficient. Like, it's not as efficient for us, so we have to explore new ways.

What about collaborating with other business owners and, uh, meeting other entrepreneurs like you and these type of, uh— Personally, for the, for the personal aspect, I feel it's amazing to be able to talk to other entrepreneurs because we're in this, we're in this and we have the same challenges that no one understands. Oh, why are you stressed? Why are you putting so much pressure on yourself? Yeah, because I have payroll on Monday and no, my clients didn't pay me for 90 days.

So the money might not be in the account Monday to pay the whatever, 40, 50, 100 people. And that's— but I'll talk about myself. Some people maybe don't care, but I do care. It's like, it's when you signed up to work with us, I took ownership of being there for you.

Yeah. And you're providing a service, you're providing your time, you're, you know, you and your family is trusting me. So for me, it's super important to be able to give, give you what you're owed. Like, it's not giving you more, just I owe you this.

Like, that's— we have a deal. It's a win-win situation. But if I'm not paying, that's not a win situation. So now you have the stress of like letting them down.

Yeah, letting them down. Exactly. That's where the— I feel like the pressure for me is always being scared of letting people down that are giving their all to me, right? Yeah, because they sign up with you for 3 months.

Exactly. Yeah. So for me, it's personal, and I feel like I've never failed, you know. I've— at least I've given my all every day.

And once again, I was mentioning, people love being comfortable, right? They don't like surprises. So if something happens, even sometimes we have payroll, right? But let's say Monday, it's, uh, it's Christmas on Monday, so your payroll, your, your pay is only gonna hit maybe your bank account a day later because there's one business day.

I will still send an email or like, you know, we, you know, HR post, hi guys, just like, you know, I say hi guys or girls, whatever. Just let you know your pay might be delayed by 1 or 2 days because of Christmas break. So if they know 2, 3 weeks prior, like, okay, obviously it's not fun. You want on the, if it's on Wednesday, you want on Wednesday, right?

Because bills are still coming in. But at least if you're aware that it might come on Thursday or Friday, you can prepare yourself. You know, you can always adjust. Communication is key, right?

Even like on the team. And that's one thing also last year I didn't do enough. I didn't communicate enough. I didn't give my, you know, like what I was expecting from people.

Yeah, I was telling them what I'm expecting from the business. I was not telling them what I'm expecting from them. So they're doing what they think is right, which was also a good thing. It's just that's not what I need from you right now, right?

And vice versa. Maybe they didn't tell me what they need from me, or I didn't ask them. Sometimes it's about asking. Yeah.

What do you need me to do? Like, what, what can I help you with? Yeah. I'm going to ask the question anyway, but I have a feeling of what you're going to answer.

Knowing everything you know now, if you had to go back to year one, what would you do differently? It's hard for me to put myself in the position of 4 years ago. It's obviously I'm going to say like the boring answer, hire the right people, do the perfect onboarding, you know, have the perfect marketing team and, you know, like all that stuff. Which takes, I guess, the entrepreneurship fun out of doing what we do.

But it's not always fun. That's the thing, right? You have to do the boring stuff. The boring stuff.

The 10 minutes of like that one email. What's the difference of it? But just that, that thrill. Exactly.

That was the word. Thrill. Okay, good. We're living for that thrill, for that one email, for that one contract coming in, or that one person that is getting— when an employee is getting married, like, oh my God, it's beautiful.

You know, like when you see them success and like when you do the end of the year review and like, hey, by the way, you're getting promotion and you see their face changing and like, that's what we live for. So we waited one year. I was maybe a hardass. Sorry for my foul language on you for a year, but you're getting promotion now.

Yeah. So we maybe you hated my guts for a year. But now, like, it was worth it. And seeing that, you know, the smile, like, just, and they're gonna call their wife, they're gonna call their family, call their father, call mother, whatever, and tell them, oh, I got promoted, got a raise, whatever the case may be.

I think that's what I'll say. That's what I do it for. Those thrills, those like little moments of excitement. I'm willing to suffer 3 months just for.

They keep you going. They keep me going. Yeah. Yeah.

So that's amazing. And what's next for you in your personal life? And where do you see things laying ahead for the business? Business right now, we're expanding.

Okay. Right now, the goal is to be able to optimize what we have, what we've done, right? Yeah. Obviously do more with less, make sure the people in place are happy and they're growing.

And they're like, they're— we're going to train them ongoing training. And then after going about doing slowly but surely expanding the business, uh, we'll say Ottawa, Toronto. So right now that's like the main focus is being able to get into the market and being a leader, right? We want to be the leader in North America.

So right now it's just step by step. And once again, I don't want to rush the expansion. Yeah, because if you rush, you only have like, you know, it's— you don't want all the chaos again. Yeah, yeah.

So slowly but surely we have people in place that want to be part of that. So people are chipping in and they have that ownership mentality. And yeah, that's amazing. And looking back now, can you say that you're proud of what you've built?

It's so funny because I had the question last week, or not question, but like more like, oh, you should be proud of yourself. And I'm like, yeah, true. Yeah, I should. But I do.

I don't like— it's not like, oh yeah, I'm proud of myself. Once again, I know it doesn't make sense what I'm saying, but it's just like, it's like people around me are making me realize that what we're doing is great. Even employees, oh my God, you should be proud of yourself. No, it's you too.

Like we're in it together. Like without you, we wouldn't be here. Exactly. You know, like, cause so yeah, so I had the same, uh, I had that statement last week and I was like, oh yeah, I'm proud.

It's like taking a step back and realize and take a look, like zoom out and see all the things that you've built. But I think you're doing great, uh, Jordan, you're doing amazing, especially in the amount of years you were able to go like from zero to where you're at today. I think that's fantastic. Thanks so much.

And I'm happy that you were able to make it on the podcast. And finally, finally. And until next time.